tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post5633383872777905566..comments2024-01-03T05:26:38.706-06:00Comments on Journey To orthodoxy: The a-MAZE-ing Orthodox ChurchUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post-61697105248600858592013-02-26T21:06:08.934-06:002013-02-26T21:06:08.934-06:00Thank you H.E. Not offended, just in a cut-to-the ...Thank you H.E. Not offended, just in a cut-to-the chase mood. You just put my post in your own words. Alas, we agree! But what to do...As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. I'd just prefer to do it where the Joy of the Lord abounds. Tired of judgmental sourpusses. They are like whitewashed tombs in which an Old Calender hangs. Fini.JTO Editor Nathan Lee Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01508044089049795771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post-75133483436507986342013-02-26T19:19:28.899-06:002013-02-26T19:19:28.899-06:00If I've offend you, I'm sorry. But, I'...If I've offend you, I'm sorry. But, I've not denied divisions. I've simply pointed out that things have been quite confused in Christian history. We have to accept why you had St. Meletius vociferously opposed by St. Paulinus, who's followers even re-baptized those who came over from St. Meletius' group, for example. Or the horrendous accusations thrown at St. Basil during his life time (i.e., he was accused by zealot monks of being a Macedonian heretic). If I was put in the middle of 360s Cappadocia or Syria, and confronted with whom I should choose, knowing I didn't want to be with the Arians, and assuming I had no prior knowledge, I don't know what I would have done; since it would seem I'd have to choose between different groups that were extremely inimical and out of communion with the other.<br /><br />The world is extremely divided. Those who call themselves Orthodox are divided. Now, ofcourse Pat. Bartholomew would say, "Of course I'm Orthodox,", and I'm sure he would refuse to acknowledge that he isn't. I'm also certain that Met. Agafangel or Abp. Chrysostomos of Athens would both be surprised if someone told them they weren't Orthodox. <br /><br />But, what if you are a Sedevacantist Roman Catholic, or SSPX RC, and you either believe there is no Pope, or he became an heretic? How is it decided then? Or, what about during the whole Great Western Schism, where you had two or even three popes? All the claims seemed to be strong. <br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post-37283018624375444032013-02-26T17:54:52.877-06:002013-02-26T17:54:52.877-06:00Yes, H.E., I know the mantra well, have come thoug...Yes, H.E., I know the mantra well, have come though Antioch to Agafangel. Your comment highlights the issue in my article. The filter from which you speak says you are Orthodox and they are not. The divisions are a result a self, or jurisdictional, determination that "they" are not "orthodox" in your eyes. Thus the numerous jurisdictions, sects, and "false" bishops. etc. Again, the Patriarch of World Orthodoxy would be surprised to learn he is not Orthodox. I have even endured, for almost two years, public attacks from someone in my own church, who has been allowed to claim I have never truly entered the church. Vitriolic judgement of the state of another's soul seems to be a pervasive spirit in the Old Calendar world. If communication breaks down, then claims of "heretic" abound. I have watched it, not only from within the doors, but from the unique vantage point of JTO since 2006. Frankly I have little desire to be around such people anymore. See JTO article "Run To The Hills." Having a form of Godliness they deny the power thereof and they are void of the fruits of the Spirit...one of them being LOVE. Frankly we would be better served here, if you would not deny the divisions by redefining them saying, "Oh there are no divisions here, those people aren't even part of us. On our island we are of the same mind. That's a totally different island with folks who used to be with us, but they floated away". Isn't the core of Protestantism the fact that everyone is his own pope and gets to determine truth for himself? Seems as though the true/old calendar groups may be infected with the same ideology. I do value your input, however, to this point, nothing you have contributed is more than redundant demagoguery, albeit civil and caring, which is greatly appreciated.JTO Editor Nathan Lee Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01508044089049795771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post-52588868188612938932013-02-26T13:59:06.001-06:002013-02-26T13:59:06.001-06:00But, Nathan, we wouldn't count those 'libe...But, Nathan, we wouldn't count those 'liberals' like Bartholomew as Orthodox. In Roman Catholicism, it is all a dependent institution upon the Vatican; can you be a Roman Catholic but not be in communion with the Pope? But, you can be Orthodox and not have any popes, or patriarchs, etc.<br /><br />Reading the other post about questions and such, I would re-vise the 'wavering' statement. <br /><br />I guess, I can call Bartholomew and the other World Patriarchate bishop to be heterodox and not part of the Church of Christ, because, in my understand, Orthodoxy doesn't depend upon one bishop, or a group of bishops. It does depend upon the existence of true Orthodox bishops.<br /><br />On the other hand, can one claim to be Roman Catholic if they denounce the Pope as an heretic and say he is not a true Pope? <br /><br />One Church depends upon a centralized organizational structure, the other doesn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post-78293048296009380642013-02-25T22:15:00.012-06:002013-02-25T22:15:00.012-06:00H.E. Again, I think the Catholics as a whole would...H.E. Again, I think the Catholics as a whole would be surprised to hear that, "the view even among 'conservative' type establishmentarian Roman Catholics is one that approaches the 'Neo-Orthodox' view found in 20th century Protestantism, as regards Holy Scripture. They believe it is full of legendary fables, and contradictions, and this as something inherent, and not, on the other hand, due to manuscript and textual variants, etc." This seems to be the opposite of my experience with them. Please forgive, but there are liberal thinkers in Orthodoxy as well. Does this discredit the whole? Which Orthodox Bishops no longer believe that Christ is the only way to heaven and that Muslims are our Brothers? I have written about it here on JTO. Lastly, why does it have to be "wavering" to discuss these issues?JTO Editor Nathan Lee Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01508044089049795771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post-77263430645304790672013-02-25T04:44:21.067-06:002013-02-25T04:44:21.067-06:00The statements about Brown are strange. Perhaps he...The statements about Brown are strange. Perhaps he changed later in life; but, I do know, from at least two former Roman seminarians in the late 60s, who attend Brown's classes, that he explicitly said that they (the clergy) did not have to believe in the Virgin Birth or in the actual Resurrection of Christ from the Tomb; but, that they were required to tell the laity these were true, even though you believe them not to be.<br /><br />However, the view even among 'conservative' type establishmentarian Roman Catholics is one that approaches the 'Neo-Orthodox' view found in 20th century Protestantism, as regards Holy Scripture. They believe it is full of legendary fables, and contradictions, and this as something inherent, and not, on the other hand, due to manuscript and textual variants, etc.<br /><br />I did spell Dr. Wills name wrong; it should be 'Wills' and not 'Wells'. This has been reported on extensively:<br /><br />http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/02/13/catechizing-garry-wills/<br /><br />Nevertheless, I would encourage you, if you haven't already, to read the Eerdmans volume that deals with St. Basil (vo. 4, post-nicene?), as well as the Eccl. Histories. of Socrates and Sozomenus found in the same series. <br /><br />Nathan, are you saying you are wavering between the claims of Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy? <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post-3725210772731494382013-02-24T22:40:02.792-06:002013-02-24T22:40:02.792-06:00Hiermonk, Not too sure Catholics agree with your a...Hiermonk, Not too sure Catholics agree with your assessment of Brown. <br />"Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, who has written presenting the infancy narratives and John’s Gospel as historically reliable,[20] was personally complimentary of Brown and his scholarship, and has been quoted as saying he "would be very happy if we had many exegetes like Father Brown"<br />Not sure about Wells.<br />JTO Editor Nathan Lee Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01508044089049795771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27046650.post-80686219629743620202013-02-24T21:41:18.280-06:002013-02-24T21:41:18.280-06:00However, I think it is important to note that the ...However, I think it is important to note that the Roman Church's unity is one of only of exterior and superficial authority. For example, Gerry Wells, Raymond Brown, and many others have and are, notorious examples of people who blatant attack fundamental doctrines of the Christian Faith (the Real Presence, Eucharistic Sacrifice, Ministerial Priesthood, the Perpetual Virginity, the integrity of the New Testament Canon), and are well known as prominent Roman Catholic teachers. By any stretch of the imagination, should not people like Dr. Wells have been excommunicated for heresy by now? <br /><br />On the contrary, Orthodox laymen who are guilty of heresy are accused, and if they do not clarify a misperception, or repent, they are excommunicated. <br /><br />The history of the Church has presented many cases in which a temporary and confused conflict among the faithful was preferred over the false unity of the non-Orthodox (for example, the multitudes of attempts by the Arian emperors and patriarchs in the 4th century, against the disparate and confused state of the Orthodox in the same period, some Orthodox of which accused the others even of heresy!).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com