An Example of Respectful Discourse on the Middle East

These comments were posted under the Article "Request To His Eminence Metropolitan Phillip ". I think that some who visit JTO miss out on the heart of a matter by not participating in the discussion in the Comment section. This discourse was worthy to post here for all to see because it gives clarity to the heart of the matter and the purpose to the post from OrthodoxProphets.blogspot.com.

Debbie Espen Said...

"I cannot agree. I agree with his eminence. You forget that many Palestinian people are Christian. And that Israel is practicing a form of apartheid, creating ghettos and committing genocide against the Palestinian people. No wonder they fight back! The government of Israel is not the Jewish people. Please remember that distinction.

10:13 AM

A Sinner said...

So does America practice Apartheid by keeping the Mexicans out? We consider this our nation. Those within our borders rightfully have full rights and liberties as long as they do not commit crimes. Those from without have no rights and if they shoot missiles into our sovereign territory we will stop them. Why is Israel any different? Your comments imply that you do not recognize the Nation of Israel's right to exist. Herein lies a political question and not a theological one. The Metropolitan shares your views. My point is that to subjugate his parishioners to his political view under the cloak of his Bishopry is not acceptable. Ghettos" Genocide? Where? The Gaza Strip was given to the predominantly Arab (they are not Palestinians-It is a new word being used since Israel became a nation) populace a couple of years ago by the Israeli government. They have created their own ghettos by continuing to wage terror using the newly acquired land to kill innocents in Israel. Where is your compassion for the Israelis on the Gaza border who have had to live in bomb shelters since their government forcibly removed them from Gaza to allow the Arabs to live there? You are apparently listening to one propaganda mill. All I am suggesting is that all be held accountable for the lack of peace. By the way, why do the people you defend purposely put rocket launchers in their own neighborhoods knowing that Israelis will fire on them? Could it be that the loss of a few women and children is an acceptable propaganda tool to help promote their political agenda. They did this in Lebanon as well. Who is more worthy of death...an Arab child or an Israel child? Neither. All should pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Orthodoxy sees the Church as the "Israel" of the new Covenant not the nation. We understand the difference between Jews, Judaism and the Nation of Israel. I am not a dispensationalist defending Israel's right to exist because of some evangelical interpretation of prophecy. I see the human equation and I am asking our Metropolitan to expand his narrow and biased view. I would ask you to do the same.

12:39 PM

Debbie Espen said...

Nathan, I greatly respect you for your willingness to do research and your openness to discover information, as evidenced by your studies in religion and religious history. In light of this, Instead of getting into a back and forth discussion on each point,I humbly suggest that you do some further research on this topic - you may discover that there is more to the story than you are presently aware of, much like what you experienced regarding the subject of 9/11, which you wrote about in a recent blog entry. You can view these documentaries free online at freedocumentaries.org: Occupation 101; Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land. You can go to these websites: IfAmericansKnew.org; B'Tselem.org; NormanFinkelstein.com; Tikkun. You can go to YouTube and watch any Anna Baltzer videos or If Americans Knew What Israel is Doing. You could check out some books, such as I am a Palestinian Christian by Mitri Raheb; They Dare to Speak Out by Paul Findley; Ethnic Cleansing by Ilan Pappe. You can research Rabbis for Human Rights. (Several of these resources are Jewish.) Unfortunately, be prepared to have what you thought you knew be blown away, and be disappointed and shocked.

2:39 AM

A Sinner said...

Debbie, If you will look closely you will see that the theme of my discourse is not the blind and compete support of the nation of Israel, rather it is how our Bishops step into the political fray with an obvious blind slant toward their Arab brothers who are as viscous and vile and culpable as some claim the Israelis are. As one comment put it, "the unreasonable bias and political gerrymandering of many within our Church in attacking the Jews and Israel at every opportunity." I have written another article called "Are Antiochians Anti-Semite?", where I state that the modern day Israel is Zionism and not all Jews support the state. I also disclaim Dispensationalism that gives a pass on everything Israel does based on a false system of eschatology. Islam is a violent religion founded by a false prophet who was verifiability a pedophile. The devaluation of women and children, the indoctrination of hate and murder for the cause of Allah (not God), the pronounced agenda to annihilate the Jew then move on to "the people of the book" (Christians)in order to dominated the world, is enough for our Bishops to know that they should not stand shoulder to shoulder with these evil, Christ denying humans just because they are ARABS! Have Israeli soldiers committed atrocities? Of course, incidents can be found just as seen by some American soldier's aberrant behavior. But does the government as a whole condone, support and train their soldiers toward such actions as Islamic groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah? Have you ever seen an Israeli soldier pick up a child and use him as a shield during combat? To my knowledge, no. There is a marked difference in the value of life. Please see the Addendum I added to my last post. Listen to the son of one of Hamas' founders. He is now a Christian living in California. He is an eye witness, was int he thick of the evil on the ground, and gives the truth without propaganda or ethnic bias. I have been studying in the arena that you have suggested, including Talmudic Judaism, the Illuminati and their alleged plan to dominated the world. I still question as to why there allegedly were no Jews killed in the World Trade Towers on 9/11, except one who was visiting and one in the plane. There were over a thousand Jewish employees who worked there and it was not a holiday. Your admonition is well taken. When I discover truths relevant to the Orthodox Church and its conduct in relation to the Middle East, I will point them out.

11:04 AM

Debbie Espen said...

Some reasonable and valuable points, Nathan. Well taken. However a few comments: Allah is not a name. Allah is the Arabic word for God. They believe in the same God of the Bible, and the Bible is one of they do consider the Bible top be a Holy Book. Yes, Islam was founded in violence, but it is not unlike the Bible's Old Testament. The religion itself is intended to be a religion of peace, and most Moslems do want to be good and peaceful people who value life dearly. Also, many Arabs are Christian, and they should not be forgotten. They are in the middle of this, too. Lastly, yes, Israeli soldiers do use Palestinian people, often children, as human shields, and have been filmed doing so, at high risk to the journalists, for they Israeli government does not want that info getting out. I have seen such film as well as other such atrocities done by Israeli soldiers and by Israeli (illegal) settlers on Palestinian land. Anyway, what is going on at this time in Gaza is plainly overkill. Lastly, I very much enjoy discussion with you, Nathan, since you are reasonable, calm, and do your homework. Keep up the good work!

2:35 PM

A Sinner said...

Debbie, It is refreshing that you understand the nature of this discourse. Can one stand with either side in 100 support over the other? Well yes, but should Bishops of a Christian Church? This is my exhortation to the Bishops and the mistake I think they show...their "bias". The argument that the Palestinians can do what they want to and it is justified because of the tyranny of the oppressor is Old Testament "Eye for an eye" theology which Jesus came to change. Critics of my posts without exception condemn Israelis but justify the same atrocities by the Palestinians. This is my point: Sin is sin. A missile is a missile and dead children are dead children no matter what the intended target. I am asking the Bishops to speak to and condemn BOTH. (So far they haven't.) For this I am called a Christian Zionist, a hater, a heretic, Cain, spiteful, self-proclaimed (false) Christian. This is an example of how deep this bias goes. I got your book and am reading it. I will consider recommending it to my readers. I also went to the site you mentioned, unfortunately I cannot recommend it. It is unintelligent and apologetically biased using media manipulation and video editing tactics that are dishonest propaganda. There are better sites out there to present the pro-Palestinian view, however proving one side worse than the other has never been the focus of this discussion.

3:01 PM

Debbie Espen said...

Of course you are, indeed, correct Nathan. While I understand the frustration and despair the Palestinian people are feeling, two wrongs do not make a right. Both parties should target military targets only, never civilians.

Is Israel Commiting Genocide?

When will our Bishops speak out against the genocide committed by Arab Muslims?

"Palestine" and "Palestinian" - New Words For A Modern Conflict

A 19 minute and 8 second history lesson to better understand the players in the Middle East conflict.











So who has owned or ruled over this sliver of land now called Israel?

Egyptian Empire
Kingdom of Israel
Assyrian Empire
Babylonian Empire
Persian Empire
Macedonians Empire
Romans Empire
Byzantine Empire
Sussanid Empire
Caliphate Empire
Seljuk Empire
Crusader Kingdom
Salhadin's Empire
Mongol Empire
Ottoman Empire (Turks)
European Colonialism
State of Israel

Did you notice there has never been a "Palestine" empire, kingdom or state? In case you missed it, the term "Palestine" was used by the Roman Empire in the second century and was resurrected by the European Colonialists when the entire Middle East was divided into nation States. The term referred to a region. The indigenous people who have lived on the land were of many races including the Hebrews/Jews who have had a consistent presence there for 3700 years. Those who choose to condemn only the Israeli Jews and support the Arabic "Palestinians" without question at least need to know whom they are condemning and whom they are supporting and why. Set emotions, religion, and ethnicity aside and look at history.

Proper BLOG Etiquette Or "The Tongue Is A Fire"

Due to the provocative nature of the discourse surrounding some of the subjects covered on JTO, please allow me to offer a few suggestions. When posting an article or leaving a comment on a blog:

1. Understand the language in which you are communicating. This includes carefully choosing words and knowing the definitions of the words chosen. For instance: the word "heretic" means: "A difference in faith in God itself" (St. Basil) or those who do not baptize in the name of the Trinity. (Canon 95 of the Quinisext). "Heretic" does not mean someone who doesn't agree with you on church political matters, has a different ethnic slant, is unorthodox in some minor doctrinal matter, who doesn't fully understand an Orthodox doctrine, or someone who is just generally unlikeable. One should take great care to not easily accuse someone of being such in blog discourse, especially if you are a fellow Christian. Another instance is the use of the word "condemn": "to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure". To point out the error of a person or a group is not to "condemn" them personally. It is one thing to condemn an action, it is another thing indeed to condemn the person or group themselves. Make sure you are using that word in right context.

2. Do not neglect the subject of the discourse by resorting to personal accusations of someone's motives and character. It is always best to know the person and to have looked into his eyes before being confident that their motives or character can be judged. Words levied at a person such as "spiteful", "hater", "hate-filled", "self-professed Christian" and "mental or verbal terrorist" are examples of judgment words. It is simply unreasoned name-calling which has no redeeming value and brings enmity.

3. Judge a person's actual words and do not attribute to them anything they have not said or written. If in doubt as to the meaning of a post or any element in it, ask questions in the comment section of the blog. This will allow further and more complete understanding. For Instance: If someone points out that Israeli Christians, women and children are being targeted and killed by Palestinian missiles, and that our Bishops should condemn that if they condemn Israeli violence, do not presume the writer is a Christian Zionist who fully supports all Israel does and who is against the Palestinian people.

Just some thoughts!

Airman Sharp

Congratulation to Gregory Sharp, now Airman Sharp, for successfully completing boot camp in the United States Air Force. Greg will now go on to nine weeks of Training School where he will serve as an Aerospace Propulsion Apprentice.

Greg is my son-in law having married our second daughter about six years ago. He was chrismated last year into the Orthodox Church by Father John Denny of Saints Peter and Paul Orthodox Mission (WR) in Hot Springs Arkansas.

Please pray for Gregory as he is away from his wife and two young children during this time. Pray for our daughter, April, and the two children that they will prosper and be at peace in his absence. The United States Military men and women are still sorely underpaid for what they do. It is difficult to see the spouses and children of those who serve struggle financially while their dads and moms lay their lives on the line. Are you listening, President-Elect Obama? Are you listening, Democratic Controlled House and Senate?

Pray for all those who serve in the military of all nations around the world defending their freedoms from those who would dominate and oppress.

A Balanced Request Concerning Gaza?

From OrthodoxProphets.blogspot.com:

The following request appears on the Antiochian Orthodox Website concerning the conflict in Gaza. On its face, it seems balanced in that it does not take sides nor does it offer overt political bias. The only thing I would suggest is that the Diocese should have and could have made the same request to halt the terrorist missiles being launched into Israel prior to Israel having to respond militarily. It seems a little late now to suggest "the faithful" contact our Representatives to urge the US government to "exert influence". Does this not infer strongly that Israel is the one who needs to stop? Why is our Diocese always silent when the Muslim Arab Palestinian Terrorists are attacking Israel, yet it screams to high heaven when Israel responds?

"We of The Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America join most of the world in decrying the loss of life and extreme human tragedy unfolding in Gaza before our eyes.

In light of this, we make an urgent appeal to all of the faithful of The Antiochian Archdiocese to immediately contact their elected representatives. Urge them to exert the considerable influence of the U.S. Government to end these hostilities and engage the various parties in a meaningful dialogue to forge a just and lasting peace. At the same time we ask you to keep all of the victims of this tragedy in your daily prayers."

I commend the IOCC charity fund also mentioned on the Antiochian Website as long as they give also to Israeli families who have been affected by terrorists missiles.

Addendum Questions:
When Hamas announces publicly that it will send "suicide bombers" into Israel and will "kidnap" Israeli soldiers in retaliation for the Gaza incursion, is the fact that they will use women and children as suicide bombers to target INNOCENT civilians and will torture the soldiers, worthy of a condemnation by the Antiochian Diocese? If so where is the condemnation and when will it be issued?

Addendum Questions 2:

Is this statement true or false?:
"Islam is not the word of God," said Yousef. "If you want to be offended it's your problem. But you know something? Go study. Think for a second that I might be right. So wake up, look at your path, see where you're going. Are you really going to heaven with 72 virgins after you kill yourself and kill another 20 people?" (Mosab Hassan Yousef- Son of one of the founding members of Hamas now a Christian and living in the United States)

If the statement is true, should the Church be careful not to side with and support advocates of it?

Addendum Question 3:
How many of their own people do "Palestinians" Kill?

Killing Their Own by Jacob Laksin

Addendum Question 4:

How trustworthy are the statistics issued by Hamas?

Gaza Doctor Says Death Toll Inflated

"Physician at Gaza's Shifa Hospital tells Italian newspaper number of dead in Israeli offensive 'stands at no more than 500 or 600, most of them youths recruited to Hamas' ranks'. Senior Palestinian Health Ministry official denies claims, IDF estimate on 1,200 casualties in Strip remains unchanged."

Bride Of Christ or Adulteress?

Another Post from OrthodoxProphets.blogspot.com

I am disheartened to see our good friends at www.westernorthodox.blogspot.com join the chorus of those who advocate that the Bride of Christ commit adultery with the world by seeking the United States Government's permission to exist. They do so, I believe unwittingly, by promoting the idea that Orthodox churches must be registered by the government by way of 501c 3 non-profit status in order to exist.

In what seems to be a sincere effort to assist churches coming into Orthodoxy by way of the Western Rite, the blog includes the following erroneous and misleading information.


"Getting Your Own Tax Exemption. Talk with your counsel about securing a tax exemption under Internal Revenue Code, Section 501(c)(3), as well as a similar exemption from the state in which you are organized and operate your new parish. This is valuable, since it exempts the church from income tax as well as from most or all state taxes. It also means gifts may be deducted by the donor." [While it is true that 501c 3 non-profit status "exempts" non-profit organizations from taxes and allows donors to deduct contributions, churches are not required to be a 501c 3s. According tho the IRS statutes, churches are natural "EXCEPTIONS" to the law since the government has no right to make any law pertaining to them. In other words, the Church doesn't even need the government to say it is "exempt". The IRS has no say, whatsoever.}

"Keeping Your Tax Exempt Status. Once your parish obtains a tax exemption, you must keep it. [Says who? The government? The IRS says that churches do not have to be 501c 3, so to assert that once you are you must keep it, begs the question.The threat of losing ones 501 c 3 status is the fear that keeps the Church from speaking to the ills of society and bringing salvation to America. Churches are under the mistaken idea that if they lose their 501c 3 status the government can shut them down or donors can't give. False and false.] One of the Internal Revenue Service tests is the “organizational and operational test”. A church must ("Must"? The reason the government can give orders to the church is because it has voluntarily become a government entity through the 501c 3.] demonstrate that it is organized and will be operated exclusively for religious purposes. Statements to this effect should go in both the bylaws and in the Articles of Incorporation, where the corporate purpose is given. The IRS also requires ["Requires "Again an order to the church because they are a government controlled entity through the 501c 3] that religious organizations refrain from lobbying or political campaigning. [ So by voluntarily becoming 501c 3 controlled entities the church must abide by the laws which removes them from any influence to speak to or effect the political spectrum which decides our social, economic and religious freedoms?] Church bylaws and articles of incorporation must also provide that church assets are irrevocably dedicated for religious purposes, and that if the church ever dissolves its assets will be distributed to another tax-exempt religious organization. (See the Antiochian Archdiocesan sample articles of incorporation.) You should consult with your local counsel about these provisions, as well as how your organization ["Organization'? Is the Church an organization now?] can meet these tests [Since when did the United States Government have a right to "test" the church? While an ongoing effort is being made to eliminate the Church from the state, the church is voluntarily allowing the state into the Church through being a 501c 3] to obtain and maintain tax exempt status.
[Sample language to be inserted both in the Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws, relating to tax exemption under Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3):]
No substantial part of the activities of this corporation [Since when is the Church a business incorporation?] shall consist of carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting to influence legislation [Wait! Isn't this what the Church is supposed to do? Yet. in voluntarily committing adultery with the state and agreeing to their rules, the Church's voice in society is limited.] and this corporation shall not participate in or intervene in (including publishing or distributing statements) any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office.
The property of this corporation is irrevocably dedicated to religious purposes,[Being a 501c3 allows the government to define what "religious purposes" are. The Church is to be defined by the Kingdom of God not the Kingdoms of this world.] as set forth above. No part of the net earnings [And the government tells the Church how it can spend God's money.] of this corporation shall insure to the benefit of its directors, trustees, officers, private shareholders or members, or to any individual.
 On the winding up and dissolution of this corporation [Does this not presume that the "gates of hell" WILL prevail against the Church?], after paying or adequately providing for the debts and obligations of the corporation, the remaining assets of this corporation shall be distributed to an organization (or organizations) organized and operated exclusively for religious purposes [And the government gets to have a say] and that is tax exempt under the provisions of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of the United States of America.

The Antiochian Diocese must lead the rest of the Orthodox Church in the west in a united effort to free ourselves from the entanglement of the State lest we become a State Church as seen in other nations. I call on all Orthodox Prophets and all who operate a blog to look into this matter and sound the trumpet of warning.

Only One Life

My mother had a sign hanging in her kitchen as I was growing up. It read:

"Only one life. It will soon be past. Only what's done for Christ will last."

Redeem the time. HAPPY NEW YEAR 2009!

Request To His Eminence Metropolitan Philip

[From OrthodoxProphets.blogspot.com]

Your Eminence, Metropolitan Philip,
The last time the nation of Israel attacked terrorists to stop the indiscriminate firing of thousands of missiles into Israeli territory, you sent out a letter to be read in all of the churches in America. The letter was a strong condemnation of the Israeli government which you referred to as "occupiers." There was not one word of condemnation for the violence and deaths caused by the terrorist group Hezbolla as they fired missiles from Lebanon, your native land, into Israel killing scores of innocent Jews and Arabs, Jewish, Muslim and Christian alike. Your politically and ethnically biased letter was what I called airing of Orthodox Dirty Laundry. I, along with many of your American spiritual children, realize that you are an Arab and have disdain for the nation of Israel. We hope, however, that you will not use the recent actions of the nation of Israel to stop the Hamas missiles which are being fired from the Gaza Strip, as another opportunity to step outside of your calling as our Bishop and lower yourself again to the role of a biased political pundit. We would expect that you would find all parties culpable and hold all actions to account for the cause of peace in the region. I for one would not welcome another such letter to be force fed to your parishioners in the sanctity of God's holy temples across America and would deem it an affront to the cause of Christ and the sanctity of His Holy Liturgy. We honor and respect you for your pastorate and for all that you do for the cause of Christ. Please honor and respect the voices of dissent that rise up from the parishes when Bishops overstep their pastoral bounds.
Please forgive me a sinner.

Christ Is Born! Glorify Him!